Comments on: SO JESUS DIED FOR MY SINS?

By: John

John — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:30:31 +0000

First of all I am really glad that I found a site where people discuss religion without abusing each other. I have been thinking about a lot of stuff given in the Bible and some of it doesn’t make much sense to me. Some of it is related to sin. I see that God reacts to sin in different ways during different times like the following.

There are a couple of instances where God punishes the sinners directly as in the two cases below:
1. Major flood that annihilated everything during Noah’s time due to sin
2. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins

Then there is the whole crucifixation of Jesus to atone mankind of its sins. In this case God didn’t directly take it out on the human race. Instead he used a sacrifice.

I can’t seem to understand how a supreme entity like God changes with time. If Jesus had come earlier, maybe the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah could be avoided.

I have many many more questions which I am trying to get answer for, but I don’t want to spam Simon’s blog.

By: Ray

Ray — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:03:15 +0000

Sadie,

Thanks for a very honest reply. A few main points to clarify:

I believe in religious freedom, that means people can believe what they want and nobody should be discriminated against or even persecuted because of their beliefs or lack of belief.

I fully understand that religion makes people feel good, gives them comfort and hope, etc. Fine. However, I’m more interested in whether religious claims are true in the absolute sense, not how they make you feel.

I disagree with you that there are “different” truths and that each person can have “his(her own truth”. Nope, in reality there is only one truth. A fact is a fact, a thing can’t be different things at the same time, ultimately. Either Jesus was literally born of a virgin or he wasn’t. Either there is a supernatural being who knows what we think or there isn’t. There’s nothing in between. It can’t be true for some people and untrue for others. Either it’s simply true (for everyone) or it’s simply untrue (for everyone).

You say you’re not really familiar with other religions. How then can you dismiss them and stick with yours? Remember, not all of them can be right — they completely exclude each other. Either ONE of them is right or they are ALL wrong.

I have a suggestion: If you’re interested we can continue via email so we don’t clutter up Simon’s blog (and stretch his patience), especially since much of this is probably not on-topic for this entry. Send me your email address to zendak [AT] hushmail.com (a “throwaway” address of mine) and I’ll reply privately with my real one. That way, we’ll keep the spambots away.

Regards,
Ray

By: Sadie

Sadie — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:39:39 +0000

Ray,
I’m glad for your comments and your opposition. They are good points and hard to fight against. It’s hard to convince one who is unwilling to Feel for truth that it is there. Whether what I have is truth or not is beside the point.
Have you ever read/heard of the book ‘1984′ by George Orwell. It is about a society that controlls its citizens making them believe and see only what the government deems is right. The main character tries to fight against the controlling government because he believes that it is wrong…according to what I know as society it would be deemed wrong. But right and wrong are subjective. Ultimatly despite his beliefs he succumbs to societys rules because of the consequences of opposition. Despite his way of living he still knows what he knows. He still believes what he believes. Despite what society says, despite what the logic shows and despite what has been presented to the citizens the main character is right according to the imformation presented to the reader. Logic shows that he is wrong, very wrong. But he isn’t and he knows it.
I feel like I am in this argument with you. You are unwilling to bend you ideas and I believe I have the truth but I recognize that most don’t recognize my religion as being the ‘right one’

“There’s an unfortunate tendency in our culture to give any idea credence, along the lines of “it doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not, as long as X believes it is, it’s true for X, so let’s not criticize it.” Well, it’s the 21st Century and that doesn’t fly anymore.”
Why doesn’t this fly? Why can’t we accept each other for having different beliefs and knowing that others have different beliefs and they are entitled to believe what they believe if they allow us to believe what we believe. I’m not trying to convert anyone to my religion, although I whole heartedly believe in it I recognize that not everybody does or will. I like presenting my beliefs and my ideas because if they ring true, if somebody does have a feeling that they are true I’m ok with it. I accept that God is found only by feelings and although they may be conjured up within us if it is leading us to do good what is wrong with it? If religion is just invented for us and gives us a group to assosiate with or a reason to go on living or a way to make us feel better about ourselves what is wrong with it? I believe that there are strong positive emotions that lead us to God. That is my belief. I do not believe God can be found purely by logic. These are my beliefs that I’ve posted. Nobody has to believe them, but I’m declaring them becuase they have helped me progress in life, perhaps they can help Simon or somebody else.
I have a friend that said “people become religious because they either want it or they need it.” I agree with that. I think that ultimatly we all need religion…or at least God, but we need it for different reasons. You’ll like to argue that won’t you. Once again these are my beliefs I never claimed them to be fact. I know them because of the feelings I’ve had. But that comes from my belief that feelings also come from God. Religion isn’t fact. I think it’s something more than that…it’s a truth that lasts and continues to come back like Christianity has. As for other religions I know very little about them so I don’t know their history. Just like others can believe them. I think a large contributing factor in what people believe is determined by what they have been exposed to. Just as this blog is based mosltly on christianity because that is what Simon has had experience with. That is a large reason why I believe what I believe. I don’t know the history and many of the beliefs of other religions. They are likely to be as right as various sects of christianity. I don’t know. I don’t know them, I haven’t been exposed to them and I’m very comfortable with my religion and have not had doubts or questions that have not been resolved from my religion so I see no need to explore other beliefs.

By: Ron

Ron — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:35:13 +0000

Sorry for the TYPOS, God Help me.!!!1

I do have a great job in this economic climate , but only because I have a statue of St Joseph facing out in my window. SEEEEE I can believe.

I have a majic cure all ….more later….unbeatable.

By: Ron

Ron — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:30:19 +0000

Everything (everyone) explains the Bible except the Bible. Mohammed re-wrote the Tome because it was such a hodge podge. It was wriotten very simplistically to keep the desert people engaged so that they would not get in trouble….idle l time is a tool of the devil. what better time killer then to memorize the Bible. Belive me it keeps a lot of people occupied….they are believers…you gotta have faith….that is the bottom line. I am still looking for the answers. Maybe at the next life…..if there is one ? Some one who has just converted must surely have the majical answer….hsare it with all of .IT MAY BE THE ONE.
from a respectfully quizzical , fence staddling Catholic Boy (man)

By: Ray

Ray — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:12:37 +0000

Sadie, thanks for elaborating. But what you did is explain cause and effect. Yes, we usually suffer the consequences of our negative actions, whether through those actions themselves bringing about unfavourable circumstances, us getting punished by the law, getting backlash from others, or simply having to live with a bad conscience. We know all that, they’re universal principles. What you’re doing, however, is bringing in a supernatural dimension, which is redundant. It does not add anything useful to what I described. It actually confuses matters since you’re talking about things for which there are no evidence. The mechanisms of cause and effect do not need Jesus or any gods.

You point out that millions of people believe in the bible. So what? That does not make it true, or even more credible. Millions of people belive in the Qur’an, in the Baghavad Gita, various Buddhist sutras, the Book of Mormon, and so forth. By your logic, they must be true, too. Obviously, they all conflict with each other or downright exclude each other. So what is the truth, then? By what right do you claim your scripture is true and deny other religions’ scriptures as presenting the truth? There’s no foundation for that and if you’re honest, you know it.

There’s an unfortunate tendency in our culture to give any idea credence, along the lines of “it doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not, as long as X believes it is, it’s true for X, so let’s not criticize it.” Well, it’s the 21st Century and that doesn’t fly anymore. Doesn’t it embarrass you to cling to a belief for which by your admittance there’s no evidence, is outside of logic and the content of which is “beyond our capacity to understand”? The time where believers could just concoct whatever they imagined and get away with it is over. You are no more sane than someone who keeps repeating, “I believe that Santa Claus exists, I can’t show him to you and nobody’s ever seen him, but I know that he exists. And I know what he thinks and why he does this and that.”

There’s nothing admirable, courageous or noble about irrational “blind faith”.

By: Sadie

Sadie — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:17:54 +0000

I did say that it was MY belief. I did specify that because I know that not everybody believes in that. I know all my assuptions are based on the bible, it is what I believe. After all, it has been accepted as holy scripture for an awefull long time by millions of people from a variety of walks of life. It’s true there is no hard cut evidence for this claim, but it is still my belief and millions of others. A very good friend of mine said “I don’t know why people look for evidence of religion because there indeed is none” Religion, or more specifically, God, is not seen, felt, known and especially explained by logic. Although we have a brain, we aren’t able to comprehend all that he can comprehend so he doesn’t give it to us logically.
My arguments do rest in the bible which you seem to be unwilling to accept so I will not bother trying to convince you. But think about it. If in a home parents set a ‘commandment’ that nobody was to stay out past midnight and if they did they would have to pay $100. The punishment is the fee. If the fee is not payed another punishment is afixed, lets say more money. A child stays out until 4am and the next morning the parents ask where the money is. This child is given time to collect the money , lets say 3 weeks, a good amount of time, but not too long. At the end of three weeks the child only has $58 dollars. This child’s older sibling offers to make up the difference. the younger child accepts, however if he didn’t he would then have to make the other $42 dollars in addition to the new fee. This, I believe is an example of our suffering if we don’t accept. We are given the opportunity with plenty of time to accept if we do something wrong. It may not make sense or be agreeable but indeed the law was set and MUST be fullfilled, once again my belief based off the bible. I know you probably won’t agree. It’s not us suffering for not accepting but rather us suffering for what we did wrong because we wouldn’t allow somebody else, Christ, to pay it, suffer it, for us. That’s what the suffering is, our own punishment, not our lack of faith or belief.

By: Ray

Ray — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:56:11 +0000

Sadie, don’t you think it’s rather offensive to threaten me with eternal torture for not accepting something that some guy — who in fact may or may not have existed — did thousands of years before I was born? (”I believe we will suffer for not accepting Christ’s payment…”)

Granted you’d have to believe in the bible for this

Thanks for admitting that. Your whole house of cards is built on the premise that the bible is true. For which there’s still not a shred of evidence.

By: Sadie

Sadie — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:36:08 +0000

I’m reading some of these other comments and I’m amazed at the confusion. Finding God is recongnized by a change of character….a change of heart as the bible puts it, but you don’t seem quite as keen on believing the bible.
Before we came to this earth something happened. All the spirits (including you and I) were gathered around God and Jesus Christ(who are two different people) and Lucifer who is Satan. God presented a plan that we come to earth, gain a body, have trials, make CHOICES, and return. However, he knew that we wouldn’t be able to return so he said that he needed somebody to help provide a way to return. Lucifer said he had a plan that would help make sure everybody returned to live with God. In several of the comments there are things like ‘we are not robots’. Indeed we aren’t but, what if we were told what to do so that we would return and be able to live with God again. What if we were forced to only do good? This is the plan presented by Lucifer. God said that he didn’t want people to be forced. He wanted people to choose their way and prove that they desired to live with God again. Christ stepped up and told God. “I will go. Send me and you will have the glory. I will do Your will”
As for not believing in God and being sent to hell I 100% believe that EVERY person is given a chance to understand him. It’s not the believing in God that condemns one to ‘hell’ but it is the going against what he has set forth as right and wrong. What is hell to you any way? Is it a physicall place or and emotional state of being? I believe it is both. Couldn’t hell be where we as individuals suffer as Christ suffered because we did not accept his atonement? If in the end ultimatly there is one God, the christian God, I believe we will suffer for not accepting Christ’s payment because the payment has to be made in order to fulfill the punishment of the rules that were previously set forth just as disobedience to what a parent set up as the rules is punished with a predetermined consequence.
“we can all rest assured that the truth, whatever it is, will remain unaffected by all our human ignorance and confusion.” You said that and I think it is the ultimate answer to Ray’s questions of why the Christian God. Ultimately the truth is what comes forth and lasts. Christianity has been around and lasted much longer than many other religions. It is also, in my oppinion, what makes the most sense, which is why it’s followers are much greater. It is a religion of choice, you can choose to believe or not just as you can choose to follow God or not.
Back to your original question. Why was Christ crusified for us? 1 Corinthians 15 verses 19-22 read
“If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ”
Granted you’d have to believe in the bible for this but his death was more than just to take our sins upon him. It had a second part, it was to allow us to live agian. We are not punished by Adams sin. He took of the fruit and now we all come to earth. We all live. We all die. But that was because of Adams choice not ours….sort of(it’ll take way too much explaining) Because we didn’t choose a physical death we will not be punished with one, or we will, but only temporarly. Christ came to earth, died, and was ressurrected as the first one to be ressurrected but just like we all live and die we will all live in our bodies again.

By: Sadie

Sadie — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:01:52 +0000

I stumbled across this post quite on accedent. Thank you for posting it. It helps me better understand some of the questions that some of my friends have about God. I see you have attracted a large number of comments. A very contriversial topic in any Christian society. I think you make exalent point and am glad you are questioning. I think it comes out of a desire of wanting more understanding and truth and every where you turn people just say “Just love the Lord and things will be okay.”
Obviously you do love God, possibly more than many declared christians. Your points are valid. “Why did Christ come to earth and hang on a cross when he ultimatly declares who is worthy?” Justice. He loves us. He is merciful, but justice trumps both love and mercy. Christ is like our parent. When we get really really stuck with no way out of a situation we can turn to our parents and they will help us out. We thank them and are grateful, but we don’t have the means to pay them back. No matter what we do we can not repay what has been done. By Christ coming to earth He lived his life in a way that he didn’t need a parent to ‘get him unstuck’. He is like the loan officer giving us a loan on righteousness. We are not perfect. We can not do it. He loves us enough that he came to earth to show us how to live, but when we fall we can turn to him, ask him for help, and he will help us.
We can not return to live with God without being perfect. Christ is the only perfect one. He suffered and died for us to pay for our sins. Justice must be paid. Christ’s sufferings pay for our sins on the scale of justice. God allows that because of his love and mercy for us. Other wise we would all be doomed to a punishment like Christ to pay for our imperfections.
Blind belief isn’t safe. Thank you for questioning. As we question we can learn through the insights of others. But, with all out questions we can as God. James 1:5 and 6 clearly states that when we don’t know God will give us the answers when we have faith, exercise it, and ASK GOD. As we pray things happen to help us understand.
I don’t know that this has helped at all. Ultimately I believe the answer to your question is Justice commands even the judgements of God.
As for why the serpant was put in the Garden of Eden I love that question. Without the serpant, and the tree of Good and Evil how would Adam and Eve ever left the Garden? The serpant was the initial opposition that began what we now face. Opposition is neccessary. Think about it. If you hadn’t had a bad day how would you know what a good day was? If you weren’t healthy how would you know if you were sick? If you never suffered how would you know the joy of peace? Adam and Eve didn’t know good from evil, they didn’t have lust or sex because they didn’t have those emotions they didn’t know how, without that they never would have had children. Had they not had children where would you be now? How would you have gotten to earth?
If you have any questions with what I have said please email me at sadie_aveline@hotmail.com. I would love to hear from you and I hope that you understand God beyond just his love through his creations.