HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO GOD?
February 26, 2009 – 7:14 pmThroughout human history people have often claimed to hear God talk directly to them. These claims have justified a whole host of events and actions ranging from staggering acts of selflessness, to utterly disturbing acts of horror. God, it has been claimed, has been behind all of these things, and across the world today millions of people spanning all religions still claim that they listen carefully to God. So, given that many religions claim exclusivity on God, how is it that all these people can hear from ‘on high?’ What are they listening to? In a world full of mixed messages and misinformation how do you listen to God?
The other day I was talking to someone about a recent event in my life that I thought was perhaps a sign, and maybe even a sign from God. I’d found something on a beach that seemed to clearly communicate a course of action to me. It had to be a sign, I thought to myself, and encouraged by this I embarked on a course of action.
It wasn’t until I was talking to my friend when they suggested that rather than the item being a sign, it might just have been a random happenstance around which I created the ’sign’ telling me to do simply what my heart desired.
I’ll admit that I felt somewhat deflated by this interpretation of my ’sign.’ But looking at it from a stone cold sober and logical perspective, I could see that there were indeed a number of ways I could have otherwise interpreted the ’sign’ or ignored it all together. I was at the time caught up in the emotion of the moment and therefore was highly suggestible to such ’signs’ and guidance.
This got me to thinking about the question of ’signs and wonders’ sought out and revered by religious people who believe that God ‘talks’ to mankind in this way. The Bible is full of signs from God, all of which are far more pronounced than the random playing card I found on a deserted beach!
It seems to me that in recent times God hasn’t quite lived up to his former glory days when he empowered Moses to part the red sea, or had Jesus feed the 5000 with only enough food for a few men. These days, it would seem that we look for signs and wonders that are often times ambiguous, and sometimes just downright suspect.
If God understands that mankind is imperfect and willful, then how come he is willing to leave the fate of our eternal soul to such precarious devices? We’re constantly bombarded from all sides with information and misinformation. The world is more connected now than at any other point in history. So wouldn’t it be more helpful if the almighty could perhaps speak up a little?
Looking at my ’sign’ from clinical and purely scientific perspective I would have to conclude that I was merely searching to find confirmation of what I wanted to believe. In essence it was no different to the masses of religious people the world over who have seen the Virgin Mary appear in all manner of strange places, or the way in which most of us can pick out a face on the surface of the moon. But then if this is the case, then how is one supposed to hear from God if his preferred method of communication is so perilously prone to failure?
If you pray then wait upon God to ’speak’ to you, how do you know if what you ‘hear’ is actually from God, and not simply from your subconscious?
Some people have told me that they actually hear the voice of God in their heads, audible and clear speaking beyond any doubt or uncertainty. But if this is the case, then how come God doesn’t speak as clearly to everyone who speaks to him? Should I be concerned that I’m not hearing God’s actual voice, or should I be more concerned about the people who are?
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Posted in General | 33 Comments »
By Ben Mordecai on Feb 28, 2009 at 11:37 pm | Reply
You make a legitimate point that I might summarize like this:
“If you claim God speaks to you, and someone else claims that God spoke to them, what happens if they disagree?”
The answer logically would have to be that at least one of them is lying, or just delusional near the point of insanity.
The better question might be, “Who gets to speak for God?”
The answer, which may or may not be helpful is whoever God chooses.
Of course this opens up a new problem: How do you know who God has chosen? The writings of scripture are supposed to be guaranteed, but beyond that you don’t know. So if someone tells me, “God told me…” I generally smile and nod. It is not authoritative.
In the Old Testament, prophets spoke with authority. Sometimes they would show supernatural signs to verify themselves, but other times it was unnecessary, for example, if you’ve witnessed God part the Red Sea, drank water from a rock in the desert, and eaten mana from heaven, it is not difficult to believe that Moses is a prophet when he comes down from Mount Sinai with his face glowing.
For the New Testament, the question can be addressed with an even more basic question: is Jesus God? If he is, then who did he send to speak on behalf of God? The answer is the apostles. You can see this in John 14, where he guarantees the Holy Spirit to give the apostles perfect recall, and in John 17, where he declares that people will come to faith in him through their teaching. As for the rest of the Old Testament we can see Jesus and the apostles quoting from it everywhere, so Jesus apparently believed it was legit.
The only question now is: Is Jesus God? How could this be proven?
If Jesus actually did rise from physical death, then we would have reason to believe that indeed Jesus is God.
Well, there were 12 designated disciples during Jesus’ life. So that the OT would be fulfilled, one of them betrayed Jesus and hung himself (Judas). So there were 11. Jesus gave them authority to speak on his behalf, making them apostles. The apostles then cast lots to fulfill the scriptures to determine who would replace Judas. So then there were 12. Paul was called to be an apostle miraculously after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, so he would be in question, except Peter, who was definitely an apostle, wrote at the end of 2 Peter that Paul’s writings are scripture.
So you’ve got 13 apostles. All of the apostles had seen Christ resurrected (Paul’s was in a vision, everyone else’s was in person).
12 of them are martyred after lives of intense suffering. Paul was beheaded, Peter was crucified, others were used as human torches, others were wrapped in animal skins and fed to hungry lions. Yet not one of them recanted anything about Jesus including the claim to his resurrection.
One interesting thing to see is that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 17, that there were over 500 witnesses at once, and most of them were still alive at the time of that writing. This would be pretty silly to write if the apostles were making this up.
So Jesus did rise from the dead. Therefore Jesus is God as he claimed to be. Therefore his word is authoritative, as well as his apostles’ as well as the OT authors he quoted and affirmed.
All this is to say that the Bible is how you can be sure you are hearing God. From anything else, it lacks authority.
By Simon Jones on Mar 2, 2009 at 6:41 pm | Reply
You know Ben, it made me smile when you changed my question to your “better question” then answered that one instead
By David on Mar 2, 2009 at 11:13 pm | Reply
1) If you pray then wait upon God to ’speak’ to you, how do you know if what you ‘hear’ is actually from God, and not simply from your subconscious?
-One must test what one believes they have heard, for we are subjective about such things. A good starting place is the scriptures themselves. Additionally there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors; not that each will speak wisely, but in hearing from many you will gain objectivity.
2) Some people have told me that they actually hear the voice of God in their heads, audible and clear speaking beyond any doubt or uncertainty. But if this is the case, then how come God doesn’t speak as clearly to everyone who speaks to him? Should I be concerned that I’m not hearing God’s actual voice, or should I be more concerned about the people who are?
-Neither. One must also test to see if what others are ‘hearing’ is indeed in line with ‘the rest of the message’ by similar methods above.
Let’s face it; there are lot’s of examples of people saying they’ve heard from God, or have been instructed by God to do something. If someone says “God told me…” I listen respectfully, but I ‘take it with a grain of salt’ as the saying goes. Rather, I more like to hear someone say “I am thinking God may be saying to me…and I’d like to know what you think; I’m trying to see if I’m hearing his spirit accurately or not.”
The scripture say we see through a glass darkly, which is to say without a lot of clarity. We understand in part. We hear faintly. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth are joined in places, if you will, but are not fully integrated. There are demonic strategies in place to muttle the communication (If you were a devil, wouldn’t you try to jam communications?). And the ‘heart is deceitful above all things…’ There are many factors skewing our perceptions of what God is saying. He may be speaking quite clearly, but I suspect the pillow we’ve buried our face in may be muffling his voice.
The kingdom of heaven has established a beachhead on earth in the advent of the Christ, just as the Allied forces did that day at Normandy, but V Day is still ahead with many battles to fight in between. All is not as it shall be. But since the ressurection of Jesus, God has been reconciling the earth to himself…we have a ways to go yet.
Many who claim they have heard from God have committed great atrocities. Political pursuits have been given credance by religious rhetoric, and sometimes thousands have died as a result. Knowing this, maybe we should heed the scriptures that exhort “You shall know them by their fruits.”
By princess1505angel on Mar 3, 2009 at 12:29 am | Reply
Hey! Thanks for commenting on my post at ReveLife. I admit I’m glad to see you searching for God.
In response to your comment “I’m not saying you’re one of those jerks, but hey, you belong to their club! (Sorry)” I must facetiously say, “If I’m in their club, they definitely aren’t following the rules!”
In regards to signs. Yes, perhaps it is all a coincidence. But why was that card lost? Why that specific card? Lost at such a precise time as to land on that beach? And why had no one found it and taken it before you saw it? Again, could be coincidences, but it could also not be.
I find the world much more fascinating if nothing is coincidence. I may be wrong. I believe God still exists, even if He allows coincidences. And I have no proof that there are no coincidences…it’s just a personal thing I like to believe.
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 3, 2009 at 3:59 am | Reply
Haha!
I didn’t mean it that way Simon.
By Simon Jones on Mar 6, 2009 at 7:07 am | Reply
David wrote “Rather, I more like to hear someone say ‘I am thinking God may be saying to me…and I’d like to know what you think; I’m trying to see if I’m hearing his spirit accurately or not.’”
Well I guess that answers my question then. God isn’t as involved as he once was.
Christians like to say the world is 4000 some years old, so in the space of that time it would seem that God has perhaps gotten bored with us all. From the unmistakable miracles of the old testament to the signs and wonders of the new testament to today, where rather than seeing unquestionable acts of the Lord, the faithful are left to flounder around in darkness clutching at straws and seeing how the feel about some possibly random unrelated sign that may or may not be a sign from the almighty.
How utterly and completely frustrating.
Just three responses after a week. Hmm… I think that might well be a sign don’t you?
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 6, 2009 at 7:16 am | Reply
You may not like this question, but, if you were to witness a miracle today, would you attribute it to God?
The same Jews that saw the Red Sea part went on to commission Aaron to fashion a golden idol to worship.
The people in Isaiah’s day were claiming that God was asleep and had withdrawn his hand from them, but God said to them, “Awake, awake!” It was they who were asleep.
Are you more interested in searching for God than in finding him?
By Simon Jones on Mar 6, 2009 at 3:28 pm | Reply
Not sure what’s not to like about that question Ben? But I’ll certainly answer it for you. So yes, I think I would attribute miracles to God.
But lets imagine a miracle happens, and I don’t mean some mamby pamby ‘Jesus made that red traffic light go green’ BS kinda stuff. I mean something really miraculous like say an amputee getting his arm back. Wouldn’t that miracle then be open to all kinds of claims that it proved all kinds of Gods?
To address your other question “Are you more interested in searching for God than in finding him?”
That’s a funny question because it reads more like a rebuke. My answer though would be to simply say so what if I was. In other words, a God of miracles would have no problem finding a man who was searching for him would he?
“You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”
I think God wants to be sought. I think religion wants to be found.
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 6, 2009 at 3:32 pm | Reply
Biblical miracles in the NT are coupled with teaching as a testimony towards the teaching.
By Rachel on Mar 6, 2009 at 8:03 pm | Reply
1. you pray then wait upon God to ’speak’ to you, how do you know if what you ‘hear’ is actually from God, and not simply from your subconscious?
Some people have told me that they actually hear the voice of God in their heads, audible and clear speaking beyond any doubt or uncertainty. 2. But if this is the case, then how come God doesn’t speak as clearly to everyone who speaks to him? 3. Should I be concerned that I’m not hearing God’s actual voice, or should I be more concerned about the people who are?
Alrighty. When I first read this post, I figured I would have a long response, so please bare with me.
1. Well, my knowing the voice of God comes from a few places… usually confirmations. I will hear or run across the same idea 3 times and that usually confirms to me that its God speaking. I then balance what I feel I’m being told with scripture, and my close friends, and accountability.
Now I am one of those who claims to hear the voice of God in their minds. I personally believe that God is speaking to all of us we just don’t take the time to be still, quiet and listen. I think a lot of this world has forgotten principles of solitude, and stillness before the Lord- and I know this because of how hard it is to find! Everywhere you go, noise and chatter. I know people who run the televisions in their homes just so they don’t feel alone, or play music. We use media, and things like this to distract and preoccupy us which I believe draws us away from hearing the voice of the Lord in this way. It’s a hard thing to quiet yourself- I’ve been working on it for a long time and have a ways to go- but I know its where I hear the voice of God.
I would also like to point out that when I discuss this with teenagers, I’ve sometimes gotten the response that they sat still for 15 minutes and they don’t hear a thing. Quieting your soul takes time and is a discipline- not a one time shot. Getting to the point where I can wait on the Lord and hear his voice (I believe its His voice anyways) has taken a lot of time and discipline. It’s easier for me now but my goodness it was not always this way. I remember times when I did not know what I was hearing but over time I began to discern His voice from my own. Its interesting to me sometimes when I hear this complaint from Christians- that they can’t hear God’s voice. When you dig a little deeper and ask how much time they’ve put into waiting on Him, or in His presence, or seeking Him- you often find they’ve not been trying very long and it just seems that in the conversation they don’t want to problem solve as much as complain. Not always, but one of the last things people want to hear is that they need to stop themselves.
Anyways, all I said above is my experience. People have different experiences and I want to be sure and highlight that it usually comes with confirmation. I believe God speaks to people in different ways- in ways that communicate to them. I know that people are all different so why wouldn’t’ God communicate in different ways with us?
So I think I ran on a bunny trail for awhile… but my knowing its God usually comes from confirmations, and then also because it just feels sound and fits. If its God it will usually be wise and something I could have never come up with on my own. God is a God of the third option… when I think there’s only one or two- He seems to always show me a new perspective or show me a third option I had never thought of that really hits the core of whatever I’m dealing with. His answers are a lot more profound then anything I could come up with.
2. I think God speaks in different ways to different people. I don’t think you can compare yourself, (or myself.. the general you) to anyone else and expect things to be the same as far as hearing from God goes. We’re all just so different. I’ve had friends get great revelations from staring at nature which while God has shown me things through nature, it’s not in the same way that it works for my friends. Basically, I don’t think its cookie cutter communication so its impossible to compare.
3. Ha! I don’t know. ☺ I would just try to work out both…. ☺
I hope this didn’t ramble too much and is clear. I’m more than willing to clarify any uncertainties…
(I also had this color coated before i pasted it.. i’m disappointed it did not transfer over…. please seen numbers above in quoted paragraph to understand my numbers below in answer form).
By FreeThinker on Mar 6, 2009 at 8:36 pm | Reply
What a great question you have posed. It’s a shame that there aren’t people from other religions here claiming that these Christians are wrong to say that they have exclusive claims on God. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you, Simon, that people from other religions will give you much the same advice and also claim to hear from God.
I like what Rachel had to say about finding a time of solitude. That seems to be insightful, even if it was muddled with her chosen religion. We can at least agree that she is likely to hear from God when she stills herself and takes the time to listen.
I too hear God in those still moments of meditation, when the tangled lines of life settle and become untangled. The clarity you can find in such moments is, as Rachel will appreciate, quite wonderful.
So I would encourage you to find time in your day to sit in silence, empty your mind, and allow the stillness to envelop you. Close your eyes if you need to, and in time you will find your way, your ‘God’ if you like.
As I wrote in a comment on your first post, the biggest lie that religions propagate is that God is is somewhere ‘out there’ passing praiseworthy judgment on us. In the stillness that all religions encourage, you will encounter that which people have been encountering throughout all of time. Try it, and let us know how it goes.
As an aside, I wanted to say that I think the top picture you chose to illustrate this post is really very beautiful.
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 6, 2009 at 10:31 pm | Reply
FreeThinker, it is not Christians that are making the exclusive claims to God, it is the Bible.
The God described in the Bible refuses to allow pagan worship. He has killed people who worship idols. He rebukes people who presume on his character apart from his words. Jesus claimed that no one comes to the Father except through him. Summed up, the God of the Bible is exclusive.
When the Bible speaks, Christians listen. We are not allowed to tell God that he is wrong. Christians are not on a mission to try to discover God through meditation or prayer, though both, when used properly are good. Christians discover God according to what he reveals. God is a higher being than people are, so us trying to understand him through our own human methods is like shellfish trying to describe what people are like. This is why we have to discover God according to what he reveals, not our own subjective experiences or philosophies. Christians believe that the Bible is God’s word, and therefore, the Bible is the only authoritative text on the subject. Contradicting religions must be rejected, not accommodated.
My first comment reasons out why I and many other Christians trust the Bible to be God’s word.
By FreeThinker on Mar 7, 2009 at 12:09 am | Reply
Thank you for that clarification Ben, and please accept my apology for getting that wrong. Yes Simon, Ben is right, the Bible – a book written by men – is believed through faith by Christians to be the word of the almighty God who has indeed seen fit to exterminate in quite staggeringly cruel and gruesome ways those who do not follow the words of that book.
Of course, the Bible is indeed just one of many religious texts that you could choose to believe as millions of others have done throughout the world.
It’s interesting that Ben mentions shellfish though Simon, because according to the Bible shellfish are an abomination unto God in the same way that gay people are. It’s curious that Christians don’t seem to get as worked up over the subject of shellfish as they seem to get over the subject of homosexuality though.
Ben is, of course, entitled to reject as many religions as he sees fit, though clearly that doesn’t take away from the fact that there are alternatives to his way of life out there that are being lived as earnestly and devoutly as his.
I hope you’ll try the suggestion put forward by Rachel and I and let us know how that goes.
By Simon Jones on Mar 7, 2009 at 12:31 am | Reply
It’s funny, a couple of people off this blog who I have talked to about hearing from God have also suggested spending time sitting quietly and so I will try that and write about it. So thanks for the suggestion folks.
Oh and thanks for the compliment on the picture. It was taken at Harlech beach in Wales.
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 7, 2009 at 4:37 am | Reply
Again, Freethinker, the rationale for believing the Bible is in my first comment. It is faith in the sense that you trust a person, not faith in the sense that you plug your ears and say, “La la la” when someone disagrees with you.
If you really want to know what the Bible teaches about shellfish and many of the other supposedly, “wacky” Old Testament laws, I wrote a blog on this earlier here:
http://founderandperfecter.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/is-leviticus-relevant/
The summary is that these were laws concerning ceremonial cleanliness and ceremonial separation from the ways of the world. They were fulfilled in Jesus taking on the role of high priest and sacrificial offering.
This isn’t a pick-and-choose theology where we can throw out things we don’t like and keep things that we do. The key is understanding what they mean in context of the whole Bible.
You may see God as wrong in his violence against certain people, but this violence is not frivolous or sadistic. It is justice finally be paid on people who went on and on unrepentantly sinning against God. God was merciful to let them live as long as he did, but finally the time came when they lost the opportunity for repentance ended, and God carried out his righteous judgment. It turns out, Hell is worse than any of these ways of dying and since Hell is still open, we all ought to repent, God has not changed in character.
I also wrote a blog more extensively on this subject here: http://founderandperfecter.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/turning-old-testament-warfare-towards-the-gospel/
And finally, yes there are many religious texts out there. Take some of the big ones: the Bible Qu’ran, the Mahabharata, the book of Mormon, and the Bagvad Gita.
The Qu’ran says that the gospel is a light to mankind (Surah 3:1-4). Yet it goes on to say that Jesus was not crucified (Surah 4:157). So, a Muslim aiming to be faithful to the Qu’ran but believe that the Bible does not teach that Jesus was crucified, which is obviously not true. The reason? The Bible was not in Arabic when Muhammad wrote/had written the Qu’ran so he honestly didn’t know what the Bible taught. If he were a true prophet, he would have known what the Bible taught.
This is just one example of how we can evaluate religious texts.
I read the Mahabharata and the Bagvad Gita, but it has been too long since then, so I won’t discuss them.
As for the book of Mormon, it is anachronistic, archeologically impossible, the book of Abraham was proven to have been imagined up by Joseph Smith rather than translated like he claimed. I am going to read more of it and will be better able to discuss it later.
The point is: this is not a matter of devotion or sincerity. It is a matter of truth. We can’t have a buffet God where we pick and choose what we like and leaven behind what we don’t. Hell is offensive. Jesus was offensive. Calling homosexuality sinful is offensive. God sanctioned warfare is offensive, but it is true.
By Rachel on Mar 7, 2009 at 5:37 am | Reply
You know I think turning this into a theological argument (which honestly, who’s going to be convinced here?) goes a little against the basic question Simon asked. He simply asked about your experience in hearing the voice of God from where you’re at- something tells me no one’s going to be converted to any religion in the comment section of this blog. Just a thought.
By Abdul Majid on Mar 7, 2009 at 11:59 am | Reply
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.
“God is Unique! God, the Source (of everything). He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!” (Quran 112:1-4).
By bipolar2 on Mar 7, 2009 at 8:03 pm | Reply
** when you really hear, beware
When you “hear” a voice talking to you, especially about religion and in terms of your lack of self worth; then you may be suffering a schizophrenic breakthrough.
Unfortunately, early adulthood is the most frequent time for schizophrenia to emerge.
This hypothesis is much more likely to be true than some god’s being in contact with you.
bipolar2
By Cory on Mar 8, 2009 at 6:18 am | Reply
“I think God wants to be sought. I think religion wants to be found.”
That’s a pretty profound statement Simon and I think you’re right on the money there.
Keep searching!
By Richard Wade on Mar 8, 2009 at 6:02 pm | Reply
Imagine two people talking with entities that no one else can see or hear. Their experiences are exactly the same, the content of their conversations are exactly the same. The only difference is that one person calls their entity “God” and the other person calls their entity “Jack.” The rest of society will call the former person “religious” and the latter person “crazy.”
Imagine two people talking with invisible, inaudible entities they both call “God.” one person says that God told them to sell their property and give their money to the poor. The other person says that God told them to beat their children to death. The rest of society will call the former person “devout” and the latter person “crazy.”
Imagine two people who beat their children to death at the command of the invisible and inaudible entities they call “God.” One person is in a western industrialized democracy of one religion, and the other is in a third world country of a different religion. The former person will be called “crazy,” while the latter person might be called “devoted to God.”
What does this say about the things people call gods and their purported experiences of them?
By Shane on Mar 9, 2009 at 5:59 pm | Reply
My goodness Simon, I couldn’t agree more that history is stuffed with characters claiming to speak on behalf of God; and is still going…going…going. All the voices sure haven’t made it easy for me either. It is especially disturbing to see how people have used God’s name to advance a personal agenda that really has nothing to do with reconciling people to God but whose agenda seems to be asserting power, exerting influence and amassing wealth.
You ask a great question Simon! In a world full of mixed messages and misinformation how do you listen to God? Once again, it’s a question that frankly, cannot be answered outside the scope of faith. What I mean is, no one can honestly claim 100 % certainty. This is not to say that they cannot claim that they believe with 100% of their heart. It simply means that a level of trust (beyond measurable certainty) if required for any belief system. Of course, I know that you already know this. But personally I think that it is God himself who set it up this way. I think that it is God’s design to make man with the internal freedom to choose to see him or not to see him. It is God who has said in the biblical scriptures that faith is required for those who want to please God. With that said, from my view (as a person of faith) seeing is not believing but rather believing is seeing. Now, I know that this is hogwash to the empiricist that demands evidence, but I would challenge that the empiricist also has to rely of their faith, which says that everything that is true in life can ultimately be measured. This is a belief that I obviously do not share.
For me then, the issue becomes, what is the most trust worthy object of my faith. Obviously, as I have indicated in previous posts that I believe this to be God’s revelation of himself through the person of Jesus Christ. Of course, even then, I don’t take for granted that everyone speaking in the name of Jesus is actually from God. It was Jesus himself that said there would be many who come in his name to deceive. We are encouraged in the bible to test these things out through the authority of scripture itself. Now, I know that this opens up another question about “why trust the bible” and although the bible for me is intrinsic to answering the question, I will refrain from going there because it is not your exact question. However, I do put my trust in the scripture as the final authority toward listening to God. For me, this is the measuring stick through which I evaluate peoples “revelations”. Now…must the bible itself be trusted? Yes. Must it be interpreted? Yes. Why I trust it above other sources? Well, I will save that for future questions, if you have them.
Now…On to your “sign from God”. This may or may not have been from God. Obviously, I haven’t go a clue about that. What this will come down to, Simon, is whether or not you choose to trust that it did or that it didn’t. There is no getting around it. Again, I would remind you that trust is not the absence of doubt. In fact, it is because of the very reason doubt exists that trust is necessary.
I hope it was from God and personally I hope you trust it. I think it will do you well. Incidentally, as I sit here and type this response I am reminded about a phone call I received about 5 days ago from a woman that I and some others prayed with because she was going in for surgery to room a cancerous tumor. She was calling to say that doctors have just informed her that the cancer has in fact, disappeared. I am forced to take a step back and ask myself, “Is this from God?” I don’t know with 100% certainty. But I trust that it was. Upon that trust, I rest my hope. Now…critics will doubt my honesty and skeptics will explain it way using persuasive arguments. But they too will have “trust” that there right.
By Shane on Mar 9, 2009 at 6:15 pm | Reply
I really appreciate Rachel’s comment about “theological arguments” on this blog. Every time I respond, I wonder if this is what Simon is looking for. And I would agree with Rachel, except that the simple questions are not being asked without comment and inquiry by Simon himself based on his own theological observations of scripture and his experience. In other words, the questions are surrounded with theological assumptions and observations. If I am to give an honest response, I can’t ignore them. If I were asked, how do you listen to God?, without any other background information or theological observations I could easily respond with just my personal preferences and experience. But the questions are far more loaded than that. Maybe I am wrong but it is only out of the intention of being thoughtful and honest. Still, I do appreciate the the caution that we keep it true to Simon’s search.
By Ben Mordecai on Mar 9, 2009 at 8:36 pm | Reply
Well, really everyone here is making theological arguments. It is a theological question, so why avoid a theological answer?
By Simon Jones on Mar 10, 2009 at 7:12 pm | Reply
Thanks everyone for responding.
I want you all to know that I appreciate the time you take to ponder and engage with my questions. This is an ongoing conversation that I hope you will continue to have with me.
I don’t really like hearing people saying stuff like we should ‘reject this’ or ‘renounce that’, it just doesn’t sound very much like the practice of “love one another” to me, but I guess this is a religious forum so I need to expect to encounter and be open to religious talk.
By Ralph on Mar 12, 2009 at 2:11 am | Reply
Simon: So, given that many religions claim exclusivity on God, how is it that all these people can hear from ‘on hight?’ What are they listening to?
Me: I don’t know of any religions that claim exclusivity to God, including my own. I think that this is a misconception that any religion claims exclusivity to God, as if God wasn’t transcendent enough to speak to any of his creation.
Simon: In a world full of mixed messages and misinformation how do you listen to God?
Me: I would say that in order for one to really know how to listen to God, they have to understand the truth about God, about what God would say and what he wouldn’t say. I know that seems nebulous, but there is the problem that God may not be the one talking to you – it could be demons, or even your own self. But when you listen for God to speak you have to be ready for him to convict you and to challenge you. I know this – he does not condemn you, he is not prideful. If you hear a condemning or prideful message, something shameful, something to minimize you, that is not God.
Simon: The world is more connected now than at any other point in history, so wouldn’t it be more helpful if the almighty could perhaps speak up a little?
Me: That is the amazing thing about faith. God never comes and proves his existence. The people who crucified Jesus taunted him from the cross, demanding that he come down from there, and they would believe. If he had done that, they might have believed, but they would have done so out of fear. That is not what God wants. He wants us to believe out of love.
Simon: But then if this is the case, then how is one supposed to hear from God if his preferred method of communication is so perilously prone to failure?
Me: He expects us to be weak. He wants us to reach out in faith to him, to try to know his will. If we fail, we try again. God is a God of second chances. He doesn’t rely on us to be perfect for his will to be done on Earth. He mostly just wants us to try. And he has spoken to us through the Bible. The Bible is his word directly to each of us. Its really important for the believer to know the Bible well, for as St. Jerome said, ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.
Simon: If you pray then wait upon God to ’speak’ to you, how do you know if what you ‘hear’ is actually from God, and not simply from your subconscious?
Me: Its a good question. You just can’t know if the words in your hand are from God or from ourselves, or whatever. But often God will work in more ways than talking to us in our heads. If we stay attentive, we will see him working in our lives and recognize him working. Prayers are heard, and are always answered. We stay attentive and we see his work.
Simon: Some people have told me that they actually hear the voice of God in their heads, audible and clear speaking beyond any doubt or uncertainty. But if this is the case, then how come God doesn’t speak as clearly to everyone who speaks to him?
Me: He actually, in a way, speaks more clearly. But words can be misinterpreted just as well as events. If God wants us to do something, he knows how to make us understand, and he will give us what we need to know in one way or another.
Simon: Should I be concerned that I’m not hearing God’s actual voice, or should I be more concerned about the people who are?
Me: Neither. I think your first step is what you are doing right now, and that is learning as much about God as you can.
If you are attentive, you will hear God speak to you even through answers to your blog posts. He uses real people to speak just as much or more as speaking to us directly. Its best to pray about everything you read though, and you will realize what is truth and what is not. God made humans to be ordered toward recognizing truth. We can be deceived, but nothing stands like the truth.
God Bless,
Ralph
By Ralph on Mar 12, 2009 at 6:31 pm | Reply
“FreeThinker” wrote:
“It’s interesting that Ben mentions shellfish though Simon, because according to the Bible shellfish are an abomination unto God in the same way that gay people are. It’s curious that Christians don’t seem to get as worked up over the subject of shellfish as they seem to get over the subject of homosexuality though.”
The Bible neither says that shellfish are an abomination to Him nor does it say that people with a same sex attraction are an abomination to Him. God created shellfish and he created people. He looked at the shellfish (as well as all his other creation) and said it was good. He looked at man and said it was very good.
In Leviticus 11:10 God tells the Israelites that shellfish shall be an abomination to _them_ – meaning that they shall not eat shellfish. Not that shellfish are an abomination to God.
Likewise, God says that _the homosexual act_ is an abomination. He does not say that the people themselves are an abomination, but that the acts are an abomination, just like all sin is condemned. The sin of committing a homosexual act is no worse than the sin of having sex with someone that is not your spouse (called fornication or adulery).
There have been people brainwashed into thinking that it is their responsibility to stop homosexuality, but really if they were truly Christian they would treat all sinners the same, loving them and helping them learn what is sin and how to resist sinning. The problem is that people get very attached to sin and they don’t want to stop. No one said that obeying God was easy.
Same sex attraction is definitely a difficult thing to have when God is saying that it is a sin to act out on that, and that is quite a burden. But if they truly rely on God to help them do it, God will give them the grace sufficient to succeed. And they are definitely not an abomination before him. He loves those with same sex attraction exactly the same as those without.
Ralph
By Ray on Apr 18, 2009 at 8:10 pm | Reply
Of course, what most people forget is that there is something commonly called intuition.
Calming your mind and “allowing an answer to come” is nothing new under the sun. Look at any contemplative tradition that precedes Christianity by up to 3 millennia. That’s one thing. It’s quite another thing, however, to claim that any “answer”, hunch, intuition or inspiration is Yahweh or his son talking to you. That’s an absolutely unjustified inference. My patience with this type of dishonesty is at Level Nada. Frankly, people who hear audible voices in their mother tongue in their heads should see a psychiatrist, presto.
From the very fist comment to this post (proof of the Resurrection):
“One interesting thing to see is that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 17, that there were over 500 witnesses at once, and most of them were still alive at the time of that writing. This would be pretty silly to write if the apostles were making this up.”
Typical circular argumentation: Claim X is made in the Bible which is supposed to validate claim Y. Therefore, claim Y must be true. Because claim X must also be true. You know, because the Bible says so.
Using that, one can talk one’s way out of a paper bag the size of the Milky Way. Again, any sane person should have no more patience with these games.
By Ray on Apr 18, 2009 at 8:18 pm | Reply
Ralph said,
“Same sex attraction is definitely a difficult thing to have when God is saying that it is a sin to act out on that, and that is quite a burden. But if they truly rely on God to help them do it, God will give them the grace sufficient to succeed. And they are definitely not an abomination before him. He loves those with same sex attraction exactly the same as those without.”
Then why the f–k did God create “same sex attraction”?
Sorry Simon, but it’s condescending shit like this that gets me. And the oh so meek and mild Christians ask why some atheists are so angry..
Who in their right mind would want to belong to a community of anti-humane bigots like that?
By Rodney on Oct 29, 2009 at 9:57 pm | Reply
Ray: Then why the f–k did God create “same sex attraction”?
Rodney: God didn’t create “same sex attraction”. The Bible makes it clear that God created male for female and female for male. Corrupt humanity imagines and acts upon same sex attraction.
Simon, I’ll attempt to answer your question this way:
God speaks to me through His word. When I read the Bible, I understand what it is saying, and it goes into the “core,” the “essence (spirit),” the “heart” and changes me, so that those sinful things I once did, I now have no desire to do them. The corrupt essence of humanity is not capable of “listening” to God, and it has no desire to.
I can’t speak to how God “spoke” in the Old Testament, and I don’t believe that 90% of the people who claim that God spoke to them are really “hearing” God.
By Simon Jones on Oct 30, 2009 at 2:19 am | Reply
I so need to write new stuff here!
But just to respond to what you wrote Rodney about the 90% of people who claim to hear God… I wonder, of those 90% how many do you suppose actually say that it might not be God who is speaking to them?
So I wonder… how do you know it’s God?
Maybe you’ve inspired me to write a new post around this question. Watch this space
By Rodney on Oct 30, 2009 at 3:41 pm | Reply
Simon:
Of the 90% that I think claim to hear from God, I would guess nearly 100% of them would NOT admit if it weren’t (if I understood your question correctly).
How do I know if God is speaking? I don’t upfront. For me, it starts with a strong impression, or an idea of something that I should do or say. If I act on that, somewhere down the road I find that there was a benefit in what I did or said, or it makes a positive impact. I admit there’s a possibility that I’ll never see the benefit, but I’ll still follow the strong impression to do or say what I think God is impressing me to do or say. I attribute that benefit or positive outcome to God. Should I? I don’t know…but I don’t know who else or what else to attribute the positive result to. Luck? Coincidence?
Let me be clear…I DO NOT HEAR VOICES. I think anyone claiming to hear voices on a regular basis should be locked up.
By Ray on Oct 30, 2009 at 5:31 pm | Reply
Hi Gentlemen, it’s been a while, hope you had a nice summer
I’ll keep it short… Rodney said,
The Bible only “makes it clear” in its own context/framework. There’s zero evidence that it’s making a statement about reality. I’ve covered that in previous posts.
Okay, glad to hear you don’t hear voices. Your explanation (“strong impression… acting on that, etc.”) sounds reasonable and is something we can all relate to, I think. But again, why burden it with additional concepts like God? It’s infinitely more likely that we get that kind of information or “hunches” from intuition or some other form of subconscious means (as any psychologist can tell you, we know more than we’re consciously aware of). And yeah, luck and coincidence do often come into the picture. So, again and again the point is: Putting “God” into any of these equations doesn’t help at all, it does not add anything meaningful to the process of understanding things.
Take care,
Ray
By Rodney on Oct 30, 2009 at 6:43 pm | Reply
Good to hear from you again, Ray. Likewise, I hope you are well.
I am a little confused, and hope you can clear up for me…I assume that you do not believe in God, based on the context of many of your posts. But, you then ask “why did God create same sex attractions?” Maybe I misunderstood your point. Please clarify.
I’m also not sure what you mean when you say “putting God in the equation does not add anything meaningful.” Like your statement about the bible and same sex attractions, God being added to the equation has no meaning only within your context/framework. Again, maybe I’m not clear, so please clarify that for me.